Goldfarming

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:41 am

Sphere, your point 2 for single player games is exactly the same "fundamentally different" reason you gave for MMOs. Grinding is a content padder because its cheap content to make. That goes for MMOs and solo games.

That still doesn't prove that goldfarming is the game's fault. We are talking about people who pay a monthly fee to play a game that they dislike to the extent of paying more money to goldfarmers to cheat at it. These people are stupid. The last thing the world needs is more stupid people's behaviour being excused.

You still haven't commented on professional sport either. Another game with an industry devoted to cheating. Does everyone who likes baseball support steroid use? If not why is that different from MMOs?

SphereOfFeetMan · Post by **SphereOfFeetMan** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:22 am

Draco_Argentum wrote:Sphere, your point 2 for single player games is exactly the same "fundamentally different" reason you gave for MMOs. Grinding is a content padder because its cheap content to make. That goes for MMOs and solo games.

The motivation is different. In solo games, gamemakers pad games with grinding for a variety of reasons. They might feel like they have a shallow game otherwise, they might want to bump up the "# of hours of gameplay" in their marketing, etc.

In multiplayer games, grinding exists to generate more money by extending the players gaming hours/months. As a result, grinding is exponentially more problematic in MMO's. It also creates goldfarming, while single player games do not.

Draco_Argentum wrote:That still doesn't prove that goldfarming is the game's fault.

1) People play a game.
2) People don't want to play the same thing over and over again for months on end.
3) People spend real fucking money in order to skip huge portions of the game.

How the fuck is this not a problem with the game?

Draco_Argentum wrote:We are talking about people who pay a monthly fee to play a game that they dislike to the extent of paying more money to goldfarmers to cheat at it. These people are stupid. The last thing the world needs is more stupid people's behaviour being excused.

I am not excusing anyone's behavior. I am merely evaluating the various forces that created this situation.

Draco_Argentum wrote:You still haven't commented on professional sport either. Another game with an industry devoted to cheating. Does everyone who likes baseball support steroid use? If not why is that different from MMOs?

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:22 am

People cheat in pro sports.

People like the sport even though you can cheat at it.

People who like the sport condemn the cheats.

How can you not see a correlation to goldfarming?

You are still deliberately trying to conflate support for games having an economy with pro-goldfarming. Fox News would be proud.

Count Arioch the 28th · Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:18 pm

I think that performance enhancing drugs in pro sports shouldn't not only be legal, it should be MANDATORY.

They should test every athlete before a game, and boot them if they DON'T test positive for performance enhancing drugs.

I want to see baseball players hitting a million home runs, I want to see heads fly off when the quarterback gets sacked, and I want to see full-court baskets be a regular occurance.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:07 pm

]1) People play a game.
2) People don't want to play the same thing over and over again for months on end.
3) People spend real fucking money in order to skip huge portions of the game.

How the fuck is this not a problem with the game?

1) I like delicious ice cream.
2) I don't want to have to make my own ice cream.
3) I spend real fucking money in order to skip that portion of the experience.

Count Arioch the 28th · Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:10 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
]1) People play a game.
2) People don't want to play the same thing over and over again for months on end.
3) People spend real fucking money in order to skip huge portions of the game.

How the fuck is this not a problem with the game?
1) I like delicious ice cream.
2) I don't want to have to make my own ice cream.
3) I spend real fucking money in order to skip that portion of the experience.

Yeah, that analogy is flawed.

Grinding in typical MMORPGs isn't something you do to get to the game, grinding IS the game. I lived with a hardcore raider for years, you grind to get to endgame, then you grind loot from monsters that take entire raids to down and have a 1% drop rate on an item 15 people in the raid need.

If you are in a DKP system guild, then you need to grind raids to get enough DKP to "buy" the items when they do drop.

It's grinding so you can get more powerful, then you grind on more powerful monsters that drop better loot.

Grinding IS the game. A better analogy would be:

1. I like tetris.
2. I don't like arranging the shapes to make lines.
3. I pay someone else to play tetris for me so I don't have to play it.

SphereOfFeetMan · Post by **SphereOfFeetMan** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:26 pm

Draco_Argentum wrote:People cheat in pro sports.

People like the sport even though you can cheat at it.

People who like the sport condemn the cheats.

How can you not see a correlation to goldfarming?

Your analogy is off.

People like playing baseball. Most (all?) MMO's are deeply flawed. The correct analogy would be if someone paid to be on a baseball team, and then paid again not to get punched in the balls by a referee who has a vested interest in seeing the game extended due to injurious behavior.

Draco_Argentum wrote:You are still deliberately trying to conflate support for games having an economy with pro-goldfarming. Fox News would be proud.

Actually, I am not. I am using phrases like ‘economy’ and ‘medium of transfer’ and 'accruement of wealth' as shorthand to describe the grinding/goldfarming problem. Since these areas are examples of systemic problems that lead to grinding/goldfarming, I am using them. Economies in most MMO's lead to gp/xp gaps, so new/low level players cannot experience the high level game without grinding and/or supporting goldfarming.

You, on the other hand, are merely shouting Fox News! at me for some reason, because you are unable to understand the situation. Fox News would be proud of you.

angelfromanotherpin wrote:1) I like delicious ice cream.
2) I don't want to have to make my own ice cream.
3) I spend real fucking money in order to skip that portion of the experience.

Your analogy is off. The following is more apt:

1) I like delicious ice cream.
2) I buy an ice cream cone with shit on it.
3) I spend real fucking money in order to pay someone to eat the shit instead of me, so I can eat the ice cream part.

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:Grinding in typical MMORPGs isn't something you do to get to the game, grinding IS the game.

There is a subtle difference here. Yes, when you grind, you are playing the game. Whenever you are playing the game, and have no interest in acquiring new gp/xp/items, you know you are playing the game for the game experience in and of itself. But when you start playing the game to acquire stuff, and it becomes a chore, then you know it has turned into grinding.

This is a good example of the grinding problem: "...then you grind loot from monsters that take entire raids to down and have a 1% drop rate on an item 15 people in the raid need. " That is almost the definition of destructive gameplay designed by the gamemakers in order to induce people to play the game for months on end.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:46 am

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:I think that performance enhancing drugs in pro sports shouldn't not only be legal, it should be MANDATORY.

They should test every athlete before a game, and boot them if they DON'T test positive for performance enhancing drugs.

I want to see baseball players hitting a million home runs, I want to see heads fly off when the quarterback gets sacked, and I want to see full-court baskets be a regular occurance.

That would be completely awesome. It would make sport worth watching.

And presumably, either a stronger person/someone who works out more is still stronger than the little guy, if both take steroids, or alternatively some people get the bigger boost from genetics - and they already let genetics dominate this (body type A, the naturally athletic, just outright wins. You don't get body type B or C in professional sporting events), so why not the "I react well to steroids" gene?

Granted, I also see no problem with real wrestling taking cues from the WWE, and allowing sledgehammers to be used, and making sure referees are suffering from medical conditions where touching them makes them pass out for a minute or two, and a wealth of weapons are stored under the ring.

I suppose even the "I am stronger" bias gets removed once people start taking one-shot weapons into it. So if we take the "It must be fair! Eliminate any inherent advantage." argument to its logical conclusion, then it's good to allow sledgehammers in wrestling and boxing.

Someone call Triple H, I think he'll be pleased with this news.

Count Arioch the 28th · Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:30 am

Eh...

Amateur sports shouldn't have the drug requirement, I believe that amateur sports should be drug-free.

However, pro boxing really needs to have sledgehammers involved to make it more interesting.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:45 am

And instead of boxing rings, they should take place in electrified cages. With explosives rigged to go off if the match takes more than a few minutes to reach a conclusion.

That'd be pretty awesome. If only there was a way to tie this back into MMORPGs.

Post by **fbmf** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:03 am

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]

Please take the Live Action Dungeon Bowl discussion to another thread.

[/TGFBS]

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:54 am

SphereOfFeetMan wrote:1) I like delicious ice cream.
2) I buy an ice cream cone with shit on it.
3) I spend real fucking money in order to pay someone to eat the shit instead of me, so I can eat the ice cream part.

Very apt. When you buy WoW you are buying an icecream with shit on it. And the purchaser either knows this in advance or learns very soon. I really don't see the problem with selling shit flavoured icecream, some people like it. The problem is retards buy it, decided they don't like shit then pay even more money to have someone lick the shit off for them.

Not only is this plain stupid it inflates the subscriber numbers and encourages games companies to continue putting shit on the icecream meaning MMOs will be pushed towards something the stupid person doesn't like.

I still don't see how its Blizzard's fault that some people are dumb enough to pay money for something they don't want.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:31 pm

Draco_Argentum wrote:Very apt. When you buy WoW you are buying an icecream with shit on it. And the purchaser either knows this in advance or learns very soon. I really don't see the problem with selling shit flavoured icecream, some people like it. The problem is retards buy it, decided they don't like shit then pay even more money to have someone lick the shit off for them.

I don't know if it's about 'retards.' I have a friend who is really into the endgame raiding content in WoW, but is sick of the training crawl that is the early stuff. He's a high-salary low-freetime sort, so he pays extra to make sure he only spends his freetime doing stuff he really likes.

Would it be better if he could just make a new character and immediately go enjoy whatever content he wanted? Sure. Given his options, is it unreasonable to do what he does? Not at all.

SphereOfFeetMan · Post by **SphereOfFeetMan** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:55 pm

Draco_Argentum wrote:I still don't see how its Blizzard's fault that some people are dumb enough to pay money for something they don't want.

Whether you ascribe “fault” to Blizzard or not doesn’t matter. What matters is that Blizzard enables destructive behaviors with its game through its business choices, which causes real harm to people. It also can cause disgust, which I have explained previously with the goldfarming aspect. Finally, I personally have a problem with any company which targets and manipulates children, causing them to engage in destructive behavior.

angelfromanotherpin wrote:Would it be better if he could just make a new character and immediately go enjoy whatever content he wanted? Sure. Given his options, is it unreasonable to do what he does? Not at all.

Unreasonable? Possibly not. But he is being manipulated by Blizzard. He is also contributing to the problem, which in turn is producing grind for people who cannot afford to buy out of it.

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:56 am

angel, the early stuff is the least grindy portion of the game. Count is 100% correct, raiding is all grinding.

Sphere, I'd buy that arguement is this was a necessity. If it was food or shelter or medical care sure. But an MMO is an optional luxury item. I have no sympathy for people who can't handle it in a way that doesn't wreck their lives.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:44 am

Draco_Argentum wrote:I have no sympathy for people who can't handle it in a way that doesn't wreck their lives.

I do. In just the same way that I have sympathy for those addicted to gambling, or whatever other addiction that many people blame the victim for due to not being chemical-based.

Sure, if they know they'll get addicted to the game because they have a habit with MMORPGs in general, then they need to resist buying it, and when they are playing it they'll need a lot of self-control to stay on top of it. But if they don't *have* that self-control, then they need help.

Help which, to the best of my ability, nobody is going to offer. We have places where you can stand up and say "My name is ___ and I'm an alcoholic", apparently we have places where you can stand up and say "My name is ___ and I'm an introvert." even though no-one stands up or says anything, and there are helplines for gambling addiction or to quit smoking, there are places for coke-addicts, even caffeine addicts are beginning to get noticed and offered assistance.

But for the WoW-addict, they just get blamed for their problems. I think that's a good reason for such games to not exist (or to work in a fundamentally different way), if they're not able to get help. Maybe we should show some vague responsibility and put the same kind of pressure on it that we put on poker machines, cigarettes and the like.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:14 pm

Draco_Argentum wrote:angel, the early stuff is the least grindy portion of the game. Count is 100% correct, raiding is all grinding.

When did I say it wasn't? But as far as my pal is concerned it's interesting skill-intensive play with a lot of his pals, and that's what he enjoys. So that's the part he skips over to.

SphereOfFeetMan · Post by **SphereOfFeetMan** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:36 am

Draco_Argentum wrote:Sphere, I'd buy that arguement is this was a necessity. If it was food or shelter or medical care sure. But an MMO is an optional luxury item. I have no sympathy for people who can't handle it in a way that doesn't wreck their lives.

I don't know if I have any sympathy either. But any fault of the players does not necessarily mean that Blizzard is 100% blameless.

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
Draco_Argentum wrote:angel, the early stuff is the least grindy portion of the game. Count is 100% correct, raiding is all grinding.
When did I say it wasn't? But as far as my pal is concerned it's interesting skill-intensive play with a lot of his pals, and that's what he enjoys. So that's the part he skips over to.

It sounds as if your friend would prefer WoW to have no accumulation of wealth, be it gp/xp/whatever. You would just have abilities, interact with other players, and play the game for funs sake. This is what I (and others) have been advocating in this very thread.

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:26 am

Hey, I agree with Sphere on something. WoW just isn't what your friend wants in a game. Hes after something more like Team Fortress 2 fantasy edition.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:36 pm

At no point can you not play with many of your friends at any level of the game in WoW. In fact, it's least skill-intensive when you're playing with a larger group: Your actions contribute less and less the larger the group is. From 1-15 it is mostly solo play, but that's also where you get a new ability every few minutes. From 1-70, all quests can be done with a group of five people. From 15-45 all dungeons can be completed with ten people. There are special raid and solo events aimed at 60/1/2/3 and 70/4/5/6 that you can also add to your game for 1, 5, 10, 25, and 40 player groups.

Halo 3 - there's nothing to collect. Accomplishments mean nothing. No economy. No picking flowers. What you play on day 1 is what you play on day 1+X.

City of X - Characters level up by playing encounters over and over. The higher the level of character, the more options you have. The older the account is, the more options you have. Characters can group with others higher or lower to encounter the level-inappropriate content and 'catch up'. There is no trading, no picking flowers.

Guild Wars - You can skip all the PvE stuff and start at top level with most options. At that level, play is very similar to only doing the 10-player stuff in WoW.

Second Life - You can't pick flowers, but you can buy with real cash or perform work for other residents of the game. You can create what you want. It's totally not like any of these, as it's not really a game, but a place to interact with others.

Look, some people want to pick flowers. Some people want to level up. Some people want to collect pokemon. Some people want to play slots or trade in an economy. And some people don't.

There's nothing 'shitty' about the first 60 levels of WoW. It gives you a new ability every few minutes (or hours) and lets you learn the game. You're killing murlocs and demons and dragons from level 1 to level 60. As long as more people want to level up than want to collect to meet challenges... The game will continue to release expansions and raise the level cap, because that's what worked before. They're not into experimenting on the golden goose.

Subscription isn't the only method of payment, and WoW isn't the only game. You don't have to cheat, but those players who do cheat will always choose the game they cheat at.

There's a reason they cheat at WoW instead of playing Guild Wars or Shadowbane - and 'their friends play WoW' isn't it. They just want to cheat. And they're not a significant number of the playerbase.

So it isn't a game problem, otherwise they'd play these other games, wouldn't they?

-Crissa

SphereOfFeetMan · Post by **SphereOfFeetMan** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:58 am

Crissa wrote:At no point can you not play with many of your friends at any level of the game in WoW.

ckafrica wrote:It doesn't even have to be about people being to lazy or that the middle of the game isn't any fun. One of my friends who was playing WOW had a friend level up his character for him because he didn't play enough. To get to level 70 in any reasonable amount of time he needed someone to help him. It's not that getting there wasn't fun, it was that the other guys were playing at 70 and wanted to focus on those characters. Now if his friend wasn't willing would it have been bad to have paid someone to do it? I don't see why.

You are missing the point Crissa. The problem isn't group size. You can't play with your friends because everyone has different amounts of free time, and grinding takes dozens or hundreds of hours that you don't have. That is why you can't play with your friends. The likelihood of having 5 people all be the same level, aka burning the same number of hours, is unlikely. Someone will have to be inconvenienced to keep up. Either that or goldfarming.

Concerning the games you listed:
Halo 3: There is as much accomplishment in Halo 3 as there is in WoW. It is an advantage that everyone is on a level playing field.

Guild Wars: This sounds like the correct way to make an MMO. Everyone is playing the game they want to play. There is no grinding or goldfarming.

Second life: "Buy with real cash." Gah. One of the worst 'games' that exists. This is almost as bad as the gambling-addiction based MMO’s.

Crissa wrote:There's a reason they cheat at WoW instead of playing Guild Wars or Shadowbane - and 'their friends play WoW' isn't it. They just want to cheat.

No. They just don't want to eat the shit.

Crissa wrote:And they're not a significant number of the playerbase.

So you don’t consider a game which supports tens or hundreds of thousands of goldfarmers to be “significant?” Then your definition of "significant" is irrelevant. And this begs the question: How many people want to skip portions of the grind? This number is almost certainly much larger than the number of people that buy from goldfarmers.

Question for everyone:

Is there is anyone in this thread, besides Crissa, who personally prefers a grinding/goldfarming game over a non-grinding/goldfarming game?

For example, there could be a version of WoW where you could just give yourself whatever level you want. All RNG gear is normalized/removed, you just choose character options/abilities. You could start at any level to PvP, or go on missions with your friends. You could get titles for accomplishments of skill in-game. You could also play from levels 1 to 70, experiencing each portion of the game that you wanted to. If your friends have more time than you do, you could skip to the level they were at and play with them. And you could go back and play the lower levels if you wanted to.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:48 am

I have to agree with Crissa here... people who play WoW actually do like WoW and chose to play it over other games. Now I have no idea why people actually like MMORPGs like that, just like I have no idea how people can get enjoyment from watching Nascar, but apparently people do.

The grinding MMORPG is (for whatever reason) very popular among some people.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:03 am

Like I said before. There are eleven million WoW players. It's only one of hundreds of game MMOs with over a million players. There are 50,000 people logged into Second Life right now. There are dozens of chat-and-meet cash games with over a million residents. There are parlor video games in Asia with sixty million or more casual players.

Your hundred thousand farmers? Drop in the bucket.

Also, if you're playing more than your friend? Why don't you save a character to play with them? Halo 3 accomplishments? Not an MMO. It's just a skill shooter.

You want to play any order without anything inbetween? Do you skip to the end of the books you read? The end of the movies or tv series? WTF, man. I don't want to play a game out of sequence.

I totally think that the apprentice/mentor to access your friend's content that's above or below you is awesome. Some games have it. WoW doesn't. So what? Gold doesn't get you there.

-Crissa

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:09 am

SphereOfFeetMan wrote: Guild Wars: This sounds like the correct way to make an MMO. Everyone is playing the game they want to play. There is no grinding or goldfarming.

I totally agree. If only my ex cared to play that instead of WoW. But she likes what she calls the journey and what I call a long grind.

Second life: "Buy with real cash." Gah. One of the worst 'games' that exists. This is almost as bad as the gambling-addiction based MMO’s.

I thought people could just create stuff in SL without paying money? That would explain all of the Longcat things, the flying penises and the fact that a popular activity there is to create invisible flying objects that randomly spam noises and create boxes around people and generally piss everyone off.

Crissa wrote:There's a reason they cheat at WoW instead of playing Guild Wars or Shadowbane - and 'their friends play WoW' isn't it.

No, that IS the reason. It's the reason in its entirety.

From 1-15 it is mostly solo play, but that's also where you get a new ability every few minutes.

Bullshit. I played up to... I think it was 9th level. The level right before you get a feat, talent or whatever they call it. Up until then? You get nothing. I may have received a single spell (other than the first level ones), but often enough a level increase was simply "you can spend a bit more time fighting the same monsters before running back to town".

Perhaps it'd be different if you started receiving the talent things at level 1, or if spells (or similar abilities, for the "I like swords!" people) were gained as often as in D&D or whatever, but as it was, it was boring as hell.

There's nothing 'shitty' about the first 60 levels of WoW. It gives you a new ability every few minutes (or hours) and lets you learn the game. You're killing murlocs and demons and dragons from level 1 to level 60.

You spend many hours until you start getting abilities - more than one sitting for most people, and seriously, a game needs to catch people on the first sitting. The only people who are likely to play long enough to start getting these new abilities are the ones who would play it anyway because they're addicted to that stuff.

Learning the game could be done by showing people how the math works in a manual - games used to come with those, though it might have been before your time. You could seriously look at the numbers and figure out how to master it. That's the trouble with kids these days, instead of reading a book they have to go around "experiencing" things with these newfangled "ears" and "senses" and stuff.

And you start off fighting murlocks and giant spiders. Hours later you are... fighting murlocks and giant spiders. If you put up with the shit long enough, you end up fighting demons and dragons, until eventually you're performing 30-man raids against Cthulhu with someone shouting "Look at me, I'm a dragon!" or "LEEEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOY!!!!!!!"

So yes, the first X levels are shitty. An option to say "Cut the crap, I want to wear shiny armour, do quests more interesting than 'fetch me a bucket' and fight something more interesting than murlocks and spiders." would be much appreciated. But because some people are willing to play through that shit but would skip it if given the chance, Blizzard isn't going to do it. Because the only people who are really going to get into it and reliably pay them are the people who get an erection over grinding - the MMORPG-addicts.

So it isn't a game problem, otherwise they'd play these other games, wouldn't they?

No, seriously, it is a problem with the game. My preference is single player games, because I'm an introvert (with evidence suggesting a misanthrope for those who don't know me well enough). But I will play games, on occasion, with people I like, even if I have to put up with other people existing. Of course, this means I have to go along with the games that they choose - unless of course there's some secret way to make different games interact, where one person plays WoW, the other plays GW, and yet both characters go adventuring together.

That'd be pretty cool.

SphereOfFeetMan · Post by **SphereOfFeetMan** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:15 am

RandomCasualty2 wrote:I have to agree with Crissa here... people who play WoW actually do like WoW and chose to play it over other games. Now I have no idea why people actually like MMORPGs like that, just like I have no idea how people can get enjoyment from watching Nascar, but apparently people do.

The grinding MMORPG is (for whatever reason) very popular among some people.

People play WoW because of its good points. They don't play WoW because of its bad points. Grinding is not a good point. They don't play WoW because of grinding, they play WoW in spite of grinding.

Crissa wrote:Also, if you're playing more than your friend? Why don't you save a character to play with them?

Because you already grinded those levels and don't want to ever see them again. Because you have more than one friend. Because then you have to grind multiple characters. Because you don't have the time to do it. Because you don't want to. The solution to the grinding problem is not more grinding. Goddamn.

Crissa wrote:You want to play any order without anything inbetween? Do you skip to the end of the books you read? The end of the movies or tv series? WTF, man. I don't want to play a game out of sequence.

What you want doesn't matter. Only what the consumer/player wants matters. Besides, as goldfarmers attest to, people want to skip that shit.